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Post by Seas on Jan 5, 2012 19:54:00 GMT
Hmm, he focused a lot on attacking, didn't he? But I suppose you have to. Not sure how to add in all of this, so I'll put down what I know for certain right now so it can be worked with. Question marks mean I'm uncertain.
Lapras, Hydration: Rest, Rain Dance, Surf, ? Gyarados, ?: Bulldoze, Waterfall, Ice Fang, Dragon Tail Tentacruel, ?: ?, ?, ?, ? Politoad, Drizzle: ?, ?, ?, ? ?, ?: ?, ?, ?, ? ?, ?: ?, ?, ?, ?
Wow, don't know much at all. You've confused me to no end. Though, I'd imagine Gyarados should have Intimidate and not Moxie for an ability?
And as for items, I've got no clue about those either. The only thing I'm thinking about now is 'Brine and Wave Incense seem pretty cool'. Yeah, I fail at this stuff.
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Post by ZOM on Jan 5, 2012 22:16:49 GMT
i'll just put down what i think the team should be with the suggestions from spidey factored in
lapras, hydration: rest, toxic, ice beam, surf (we need toxic, because that's a pretty vital key in this strategy) politoad, drizzle: i haven't gotten any real feedback on my accuracy/evasion thread yet, but assuming my suggestion gets agreed on, then i stick by the moveset i gave initially. actually... i think i'll stick by it anyway, just for the coverage of its weaknesses, although replacing double team with hypnosis if my suggestion doesn't pass. so-- bounce, mud bomb, water pulse, double team/hypnosis ludicolo, rain dish: leech seed, giga drain, ice beam, scald. great for making ludicolo last a long time while a burn saps away at the enemy's health. tentacruel, rain dish: toxic spikes, sludge wave, water pulse, hex gyarados, intimidate:bulldoze, waterfall, dragon dance, dragon tail. ditched ice fang because it kinda sucks, and dragon dance is a much better choice seismitoad, swift swim: sludge wave, muddy water, earthquake, supersonic
feel free to disagree on stuff, either of you! this is just what looks good to me. i haven't gone into items yet, want to wait for finalized team and movesets.
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Post by Seas on Jan 6, 2012 4:30:47 GMT
So, here's my thoughts on this:
Lapras can have Rainy Day instead of Ice Beam, just in case. Though, if Tentacruel is using Toxic Spikes, why would we need Toxic? Gyarados: Dragon Dance sounds good to me; I just didn't see it there when I was looking for stat boosting moves. Tentacruel: Rain Dish seems fine to me. Hex, Sludge Wave, Water Pulse and Toxic Spikes sounds good to me; would that mean we put Tentacruel in front? And if Toxic Spikies works, do we even need the other moves? Or are we just being extra careful? Politoad, we'll have to wait for.
The others, I'm still not even sure on. Maybe. Would like to have some said and done first.
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Post by ZOM on Jan 6, 2012 5:09:30 GMT
i really don't think lapras needs to have rain dance, and i explain why relative to politoed later in the post. if you really want it then i suppose replacing ice beam is fine, but on a water team, getting rid of a move with STAB that could effectively decimate grass-types is probably not wise. granted the team is pretty good against grass as a whole, but still. either way, lapras needs toxic, regardless of toxic spikes, because literally the entire strategy revolves around it working. this lapras build is meant to stall while the enemy just gets their health leeched away over time, and say that the spikes aren't laid down before a Pok?mon is sent in, so they aren't poisoned, or they get poisoned but the trainer uses an antidote. you do need toxic, because if you're not doing progressively increasing damage as time goes on while healing yourself, it isn't much of a strategy. you're just prolonging the inevitable instead of really making the enemy sweat.
also the poison from toxic is worse than regular poison. toxic poison gets more damaging as time goes on, but regular poison stays static. so toxic is better anyway in this case. toxic spikes is just a good idea.
we wouldn't open with tentacruel because politoed's drizzle is the focal point of the entire strategy, so we'd want politoed as a starter. however, once its ability comes into effect, we could pretty much immediately switch in tentacruel to lay down the spikes if we wanted to, and that way if the rain is interrupted by an enemy weather effect we can switch politoed in again as needed without worrying about its health so much. that's why i don't really think lapras needs rain dance. like, seriously. we have a "rain dance" that doesn't take up a turn or a move slot that can be used at any time until they finally manage to faint the little bugger, who is specifically designed to be really annoying to hit. so even if we keep politoed in for a while, he's not taking much damage if used right.
to be perfectly honest i think that the really important pieces to this team are politoed and lapras, and ludicolo and seismitoad are extremely wise additions which should have priority just under politoed and lapras on the "should probably keep" roster. ludicolo is an all-around good Pok?mon on a water team, and will be nearly as annoying to kill as lapras with this build. seismitoad will give a giant middle finger to electric-types, something the team sorely needs. gyarados and tentacruel, meanwhile, are not very essential pieces. if there's anything you'd like to replace, those are the ones i would toss first, in particular gyarados. having a x4 electric weakness that isn't covered very well outside of seismitoad and ludicolo, unlike the grass weakness of seismitoad that the entire team pretty much handles, is a huge issue and while being pretty strong, it doesn't contribute much in the way of strategy. tentacruel is only more vital because of toxic spikes, and i'd replace it in a heartbeat if i could find a better water-type with spikes and/or toxic spikes.
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Post by Seas on Jan 6, 2012 8:04:02 GMT
Alright, we're agreeing on everything except that toad Pok?mon and maybe Rain Dance.
Though, the reason I'd give Lapras Rain Dance is because we're not thinking about the other team that'll go up against her. What if they have a Pok?mon that uses something like Toxic Spikes? What is they have a Pok?mon with an ability similar to Drizzle, but for Sunny Day? It worries me.
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Post by ZOM on Jan 6, 2012 16:36:24 GMT
the only Pok?mon capable of having drought, which is the sunny day equivalent of drizzle, are vulpix/ninetales and groudon. if someone is dumb enough to send their ninetales out against a water gym, they'll be easy to decimate. alternatives include Pok?mon with snow warning (snover/abomasnow, easy to handle with a poison attack from seismitoad or tentacruel) and Pok?mon with sand stream (tyranitar or hippowdon, both weak to water). i think you'll find that we can handle anything that tries to change the weather with a move, too, save for maybe a grass type with sunny day for the sake of using solar beam. but gyarados or lapras would be alright against that, and lapras would wipe it out in a jiffy with ice beam -- which we still want to keep, by the way.
hence, i don't think we need rain dance. we really really really really really don't need it. i'm tellin you.
fair point on the spikes, though. perhaps we'll want to also give tentacruel rapid spin? that way we don't have to worry, and anyway it's worth noting that most Pok?mon with spikes are more than likely going to be dealt with very easily by this team, thanks to spikes being a ground-type move. toxic spikes is only a little tougher to deal with. my main concern is ferrothorn, which we have no good counter to. but i think that's okay, because we don't want to make this gal unbeatable. just difficult. if they're able to exploit the weaknesses of the team like that, then i say they deserve it!
speaking of spiky Pok?mon, i noticed that cloyster has both spikes and toxic spikes, making it an effectively better spiker than tentacruel -- and worth considering as a replacement, particularly because cloyster also helps deal with grass. spikes, toxic spikes, icicle crash, razor shell. give it shell armor. boom. if you're really concerned about spikes from the other team, we can replace icicle crash i suppose.
and i'm gonna fight you one last time on seismitoad lol... because without it we have no good defense against electricity, and lanturn just isn't an equal or suitable substitute. if after this post you're positive you don't want it, then it's chill, i'll get an electric type and eat this gal up when i get to her. but it's not smart, that's all.
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Post by Seas on Jan 6, 2012 21:44:32 GMT
1. Alright, no Rain Dance for Lapras. I just wanted to be sure.
2. Won't worry about Spikes either, and you have a point on not making her unbeatable.
3. Cloyster now, too? You just keep messing with this team.....well, I'll think about it.
4. Seismitoad isn't the only ground/water type though; is it really the only one that we can use? If I have to take it, I will, but I'd really prefer not to.
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Post by ZOM on Jan 7, 2012 3:39:11 GMT
1. alrighty. spidey suggested giving politoed the item "red card," which seems like it'd make it pretty impossible to lose our source of rain, so that should more than make up for it.
2 + 3. no real need to switch in cloyster, but it's an option if we want more spikes to get laid down. i'll leave that entirely to your call because i don't think the team suffers either way.
4. i asked spidey's opinion on this, and as far as i can see all of the water/ground types are viable options, but whiscash may actually be a really good one. it can have the ability hydration, same as lapras, and if we give it rest as well then it'll be almost as sustainable, but with an offensive focus instead. the set he recommended for it is earthquake, zen headbutt, spark, and rest. so yeah, that would be a good alternative. but it's your call. if you're still really wanting it then we could do lanturn even. lemme know what you decide on and if need be i (with spidey's help lol) will whip up a moveset, or check over ones we've already thought of.
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Post by Spiderc on Jan 7, 2012 6:06:18 GMT
as i was trying to fall asleep, i realized i meant eject button, not red card
goodnight
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Post by Seas on Jan 7, 2012 6:20:53 GMT
Thanks Spi.
1. Yeah, I was wondering about that. But hey, at least we've got one moveset/Pok?mon/ability/item down now.
2. + 3. I'm keeping Tentacruel, thank you. Poor Pok?mon isn't used enough.
4. Wishcash sounds pretty cool to me, though I'm not completely sure about the moveset and if at all possible I'd like to compare it to Quagsire, since it's hidden ability seems cool. I'm no longer set on Lanturn; you were right in it being a contest Pok?mon.
And though this has very little to do with anything, since I don't think it suits Solastella (maybe it does though, maybe we're just that wacky) but I was looking at the water/electric Rotom form and thinking, 'Maybe...'
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Post by ZOM on Jan 7, 2012 17:30:43 GMT
whiscash i think is the better choice compared to quagsire, particularly because of its ability (because unaware might have a niche, but it's dependent on the enemy and therefore might have no use at all, whereas hydration fits with the team strategy and is almost assured to have great use), and also because quagsire's move pool isn't as good. still, we could work with quagsire if you want it? its hp, attack, and defense aren't bad, so... use recover to make it long-lived, earthquake and body slam for damage, and maybe yawn to keep the enemy down for the most part. an equal balance of defensive and offensive, not too bad. thoughts, spidey?
tl;dr: potential to use quagsire with the moveset earthquake, body slam, recover, and yawn, with unaware as an ability?
haha oh man, wash rotom... that'd be pretty funny. its stats aren't bad, so it's possible i figure? hydro pump, thunder bolt, ominous wind (for the great stat increase side-effect), and confuse ray?
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Post by Seas on Jan 8, 2012 0:09:47 GMT
I am going to use way too many of these ideas for my water trainer in Torrenta. But yes, for now we wait for Spi, who always seems to have good ideas.
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Post by Spiderc on Jan 8, 2012 1:25:18 GMT
To clarify the team is Politoad, Lapras, Ludicolo, Tentacruel, Gyarados, and Whiscash/Quagsire/Lanturn/Wash Rotom.
So we have Utility/Damage, Stall/Annoy, Stall/Life Steal, Damage, Glass Cannon, and Electric-Counter (respectively). Of those four, I would say that Whiscash and Lanturn best fit the role of an electric tech, so I think either of those would work fine.
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Post by Seas on Jan 8, 2012 1:50:16 GMT
Alright, so I've got Wishcash or Lanturn. Zom keeps telling me Lanturn'd be a bad idea, what do you think Spi?
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Post by Spiderc on Jan 8, 2012 2:03:44 GMT
I think they're equally good. Zom was mainly saying Lanturn was bad because of stats, but I pointed out that stats don't matter quite as much in RP, so it truly doesn't matter.
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